Good bagels DO have a distinctive flavor even without the toppings, but it's next to impossible to get a real old fashioned bagel even in NYC. The chains have taken over and most bagels you buy are little more than slightly chewy white bread with a whole in the middle. I grew up in NYC and have fond memories of going in with my mom to buy hot fresh bagels at our local bagel bakery and her tearing one into pieces for us to eat on the spot. No butter, no cream cheese, and they tasted wonderful! In terms of bagel starters, a lot of the pro recipes I've read in my quest to make a real NYC bagel suggest letting the dough rest overnight or longer in the fridge. That may be what helps the flavor develop. But it's hard to put trays of bagels in a fridge when it's packed with the food to feed 2 adults and 2 growing girls! :) I guess it's time to break out the KA Lancelot flour,try the overnight starter and the steaming instead of boiling and see what happens! Overnight rise in the fridge would definitely help the flavor - give it a try with just a couple of bagels (for space considerations) sometime. That long, cool rise encourages the development of acetic acid and other organic acids, as well as alcohol - all faovor enhancers. I'd shape and refrigerate, covered, right away; don't let them rise at all. Then proceed the next day. Let us know how they come out! PJH

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